The transcript below is from the video “Wing Chun vs JKD – The Problem with Challenging Teachers” by Goldenbell Training.

Goldenbell Training:

One of the biggest problems with traditional martial arts that I wanted to address is the problem with challenging other martial arts teachers. This is something that I’ve wanted to talk about for a long time but this morning, I saw a video about a fight between a Wing Chun instructor and a Jeet Kune Do student that made me want to address this topic sooner than I had planned.

What’s up y’all? My name is Prince, and this is kind of like my training journal where I’m sharing my journey to help you guys become better martial arts athletes. So, like I was saying, this problem with challenging other martial arts teachers is something that I’ve been thinking about for years, and this video that I saw this morning made me feel a certain type of way to where I felt like I needed to post a video to kind of process my thoughts. So, think of this as kind of like therapy for me.

Goldenbell Training:

Now, I’m not really clear on the full details but from what I understand, the Wing Chun teacher Rahsun Herkul was teaching a Wing Chun class from his home, and this Jeet Kune Do student had something to say while Rahsun was doing like some kind of kicking demonstration with a student or a participant that was there. So, whatever the kick was that Rahsun wanted his partner to defend against, the Jeet Kune Do guy in the striped shirt who everyone is calling Waldo now, he said that Rahsun was leaving his groin open. And Rahsun asked Waldo to show him what he was talking about. So then, Waldo steps up. Now this is where things get a bit confusing, but Waldo starts asking about protective gear, sparring gear and if Rahsun is going to wear a cup. So Waldo says, “Oh oh well, he wants the real thing”. And he kicks the bag which sort of implies that he’s going to really try to kick this guy in the nuts. So after that, Waldo proceeds to give Rahsun a lesson on Jeet Kune Do’s stance and kicking. And it looked like he was trying to demonstrate how he can jam the Wing Chun kicks using that Jeet tech kick that I talked about in a video in my Bruce Lee series.

Goldenbell Training:

Now, I have no idea if that kid knows that the intercepting kick that he’s talking about actually comes from Wing Chun. I mean, maybe Waldo needs to start watching some of my videos. But anyway, so Waldo is going on about how he can use a Jeet tech to stop Rahsun’s kick and he can do it no matter what leg he tries to kick him with and he can step off the line, jam the kick or step in and hit rasan with an uppercut. So, at that point Rahsun says, “Well, hey man, let’s put on some gloves and test this thing out”. And Waldo’s immediate response is that, “we’re not going to do anything with our sparring gear”. And now, it kind of sounds like he was chickening out but he really was asking for sparring gear before they test any of that stuff out. So, Rahsun gets kind of testy at that point and then they both get heated. And both of them feel like they’re both being disrespected. Rahsun, because Waldo just basically took over the lesson that he was trying to teach that day. And Waldo feels like Rahsun isn’t really taking him seriously. So, this whole irrational line of thinking keeps on going. Rahsun says, “Get the man some gloves and let spar, because Imma knock him to half out”. And they both start doing the monkey dance and posturing. I mean this is how fights usually start.

Goldenbell Training:

Now according to Rahsun, Waldo headbutted him. But I don’t think he did. Like I said, this is all part of the monkey dance. You puff out your chest, some people lower their head, you either get big to intimidate somebody or you get small to be less of a target. And they’ll get close to each other and start pushing. And I’m telling you, pay attention to guys when they’re drawing off about fighting. It’s called the monkey dance and you’ll see this type of activity in primates. But anyway, Rahsun, believing that Waldo headbutted him, answers him with a slap. And forget about getting gloves and sparring gear, he doesn’t even wait to strike with an open hand slap followed by a series of other open hand slaps, before he grabs Waldo, tosses him to the ground. And then he begins to rain down punches. They eventually both end up on the ground with Rahsun on top of Waldo and it’s starting to look like the time Rahsun Sigong, William Cheung got jumped by him in Boztepe back in 1986.

Goldenbell Training:

And I think Rahsun was trying to put Waldo in an armbar but I can’t really tell. I mean, maybe he grabbed his arm and he was trying to pull him up. I mean, who knows at this point. Either way, they both got back to their feet before Rahsun shoved Waldo and Waldo tripped over a grappling dummy behind him. As Waldo attempted to stand back up, he tried to roundhouse kick Rahsun in the head but it didn’t work out too well. It looked like he caught Rahsun’s shoulder and then he took another tumble. Rahsun hit Waldo with a few more shots upside his dome before he told him to leave his home.

So, I mean, that’s how the fight went down between an established Wing Chun instructor and some kid off the street who appears to have trained in some Jeet Kune Do. Now, just to clear some things up, Rahsun Herkul teaches under William Cheung’s traditional Wing Chun system up in North Hollywood. And according to his promo videos on his website and on his Facebook page, he’s been training martial arts since the early 1970s. And being located in North Hollywood, he’s worked with actors, professional athletes and all kinds of high profile people in addition to providing fight choreography on set and doing security and bodyguard work for some celebrities. So, this isn’t just some dude who’s like teaching some backyard bootleg Kung Fu. He’s flown all over the world from New York, California to Australia and Hong Kong to train with William Cheung. He’s worked with actors and stunt performers on set in Hollywood productions.

Goldenbell Training:

And I mean, do you know how I saw this video? It popped up in my Facebook feed because my friend who directed the movie “Blood and Bone” among some other Hollywood movies, either liked or commented on that video. I mean, how many other directors and celebrities saw this video where this guy beat up some kid who nobody even knows. I mean, on top of that, he’s got all of his buddies and these other Wing Chun instructors who have, like, some kind of delusional grandeur, cheering him on. They’re like, “Yeah man, you just let the Brooklyn out on him dawg”, Yeah man, let that fool know what’s up. You can’t be disrespecting the Queen like that”. I mean, yeah, there’s some trolls and some haters scattered in, with the people who actually are making sound points about how Rahsun was wrong for attacking Waldo the way he did. I mean, like at this point, what do you guys think? Was it wrong for Waldo to basically take over the class and say hey bro that sh*t doesn’t work? Or was it wrong for Rahsun to immediately tee off on this kid when he said that he was down to spar once they got some gear on? I mean, the way I see it, they were both wrong. There was probably a better way for Waldo to go about challenging what Rahsun was doing. And without getting Waldo’s side of the story, we really had no idea what his intentions were. He could have been invited to that class.

Goldenbell Training:

I mean, back when I studied Wing Chun just south of them down in San Diego, there were the official classes held at the school where I was also studying Wushu. But then there were also these free classes that were by invitation only at the teacher’s house. And those garage classes were where the real material was taught and sort of a closed-door type situation. But I mean, whether it’s an open door class, a closed door class, a workshop or a really big seminar, there really is this problem where it’s, like, considered disrespectful to show up and challenge the teacher. And this is something that I’ve been planning to talk about for months. And I may end up having to do, like, more than one video on this problem.

Goldenbell Training:

Like I said, I don’t know if Waldo had it out for Rahsun or if he just got caught up in the politics around Wing Chun. I mean, personally, I wouldn’t touch William Cheung’s Wing Chun with a 9-foot pole. There’s a Wing Chun joke there. You know, because the dragon pole is about 9 feet long. I mean, you guys don’t know what’s funny. Well, you know what, I thought it was funny when I wrote it down. But anyway, like I was saying, I have no idea if Waldo had it out for this guy in the very beginning, like he was going there determined to show this Wing Chun teacher the superiority of Jeet Kune Do or maybe he just went there having an experience and he thought he would contribute to the class. Either way, I think he maybe should have kept that particular comment to himself. There’s a right time and a right place for that kind of stuff and not every practice drill needs to be realistic. Sometimes it’s just practice and sometimes you might not actually know the purpose of a certain drill. It’s not always directly about fighting y’all.

But I mean, let’s say this kid did go there with the intention of challenging this teacher. He went there because he heard or he saw a thing about Sifu Rahsun Herkul and he wanted to see what this dude was all about. I mean, is that disrespectful? And if that is the case, does that put Waldo in the wrong? But look, if you say it is, I’m gonna push back against it in a moment. But I mean, really, if you do think that it would be disrespectful for Waldo to have shown up with the intentions of seeing what this dude is all about and then presenting a bit of a challenge, look I’d like to hear from you down in the comments, because this really is a topic that I thought a lot about for a long time.

Goldenbell Training:

See, look, I don’t have a problem with Waldo if that’s why he showed up. Now, I’m not saying he went about it the right way. But I think he could have waited for Rahsun to demonstrate something on him, build up that trust between the two of them, and eventually see if he’s open to turning up the dial on the intensity. I mean, you really do have to respect someone’s training space and their class. That’s just part of good move duh or martial arts virtue and martial arts morality. But unfortunately, in my experience, this almost always goes bad. And I feel like a good teacher knows how to control the situation. In this particular example, I mean, sorry if you’re watching this Rahsun, but you were not a good teacher. not in this situation. I don’t care if your colleagues and your homeboys say you were. You did not handle this the right way. And I’m gonna tell y’all the story about a teacher getting challenged and handling it the right way.

Goldenbell Training:

So, about 9 years ago, when I got to try out Sam Chin’s I Liq Chuan for the very first time, it was when Kelly Graham came out to Nashville because kelly’s son was competing in this really big chess tournament and it was held for kids all over the U.S. Now, this other guy named Patrick, he lived up around tri-cities which is in East Tennessee. So, Patrick and I were both going to train with Kelly while he was in Nashville for the chess tournament, because we’ve both been training long distance with Kelly in this online program that he used to have and I don’t know if he’s still running it. Now, since that time, Patrick stopped doing I Liq Chuan and he’s actually become an instructor under Adam Mizner. But Mizner and his organization, that’s a topic for another video. So, you have to stay tuned for that one. But what I’m telling you all about Patrick, that happened maybe a year or two before Patrick picked up his stuff and headed out to Thailand, where I am now, to train with Adam Mizner. So, if any of y’all are from Nashville are familiar with the Nashville middle Tennessee area, we were at Opryland Hotel which is this huge hotel. So, we’re training all over the hotel, doing standing poster jam jong, learning the 15 basic exercises of I Liq Chuan and doing lots of spinning hands, especially heavy spinning hands. So, sometimes in between these big chess matches, the hallways would get very busy. And while this tall old guy walks up after he’s passed by us training several times and when we took a break to listen to Kelly’s instructions, the big old dude decides that it is the perfect time to introduce himself.

Goldenbell Training:

So, he starts going on about how he’s been studying Japanese martial arts for all these decades and he’s written all these articles on Zen and the martial arts the past 30 years. He’s like trying to quiz Kelly on all his zen philosophy and stuff about Karate because, well, Kelly told him he studied Karate and he did until he met his Tai Chi teacher Michael Phillips. Because Michael beat up his Karate teacher after taunting him in the parking lot outside the school for an entire month. But anyway, Kelly finally got tired of the guy interrupting our training with his questions and him trying to show how much he knew. So, Kelly finally asked the guy if he wants to train with us. Now, if you aren’t familiar with I Liq Chuan, you probably have no idea what spinning hands is or especially, heavy spinning hands. And I’ll just say, heavy spinning hands is a conditioning drill. My Sifu mentions it in the interview that he did with Martial Man, but it basically helps condition the tendons in the arms. Now, there’s this other part of spinning hands in that it’s meant to serve both people, especially when you spin heavy. When you’re the person providing resistance, you have to listen to the other person and know how much you need to feed them.

Goldenbell Training:

Well, this old dude, he’s just resisting, resisting, resisting, resisting. He jumped in with me and he’s already tall. So, you know, like now he’s pressing down on top of like his weight and gravity. And I immediately turn around and look to Kelly like, “Yo man, what the f is this guy doing?” If that old man is watching this video, well, when I tell y’all what happened to him, he’s probably gonna turn it off. But that dude is lucky I didn’t kick the sh*t out of him like for real. My shoulders were already screaming and now I’m trying to hold up this funky old dude who doesn’t know how to do the drill right. And he did the same thing to Patrick. So, anyway, this guy didn’t stop there. That day and the next day, he kept coming up trying to interrupt our practice. He kept wandering over trying to quiz Kelly on something that he studied a long time ago in one of his trips to Japan that really had nothing to do with actually making anyone better at martial arts.

Goldenbell Training:

Now, if you’ve ever trained with people that have real internal martial arts skills, you already know how this is gonna go. And if you haven’t, look, go listen to Ramsay do his story about when he was at a Sanda camp and this old Tai Chi master comes in there and throws him and his two coaches all over the place. So, this guy starts trying to spin with Kelly. And before they started, Kelly said, “hey man, at any point that you feel you can hit me, I want you to hit me”. Well, anyway, as soon as they touch hands, yo man, it was like this dude was trying to walk on ice. His whole body was shaking like he was a Parkinson’s patient. Kelly reached up and tapped the guy on the nose. He tapped him on the forehead, he tapped him on the chest about five times, he start patting him on the head repeatedly. Like every time he touches him, he says, I just hit you. I just hit you again, I just hit you again. How many times you want me to hit you? Now, I don’t know if that guy got anything out of that exchange besides humiliation. He never bothered us the rest of the tournament and maybe he checked out of the hotel. I mean, who knows? The truth is, he may have walked away from that exchange with Kelly thinking the same thing about himself from before he ever came across a white guy and a black polo from Arizona.

Goldenbell Training:

Well, Kelly eventually got tired of this dude interrupting him and jumping in our drills and doing everything wrong. This guy finally comes over to basically tell Kelly what he was teaching us was all wrong. He said the drills we were doing were impractical and would never work in a fight. You know, like the same stuff people on YouTube say about Tai Chi who’ve never actually experienced the art from a person with real skill. What’s that saying like, something like, the people who’ve never tried a thing will always be the first to tell you what you’re doing won’t work. But anyway, so, Kelly asked the guy if he wanted to spin with him. And he said, “well, you’ve been spinning with my students and it looks like they didn’t have anything to show you. So, let me show you myself”.

Goldenbell Training:

I really have no idea if that experience changed him at all. What I do know is that Patrick and I came away from that experience thinking very highly of the art of I Liq Chuan. I mean, yes, I did say that Patrick left for Thailand, trained with Adam Mizner and now he’s an instructor under Mizner school. I mean, sometimes it’s about finding the best person for you to help you walk that path. At least from that experience, he saw the destination. The seat when a teacher is challenged, it’s not always about well, I’m gonna show this person that I’m gonna beat the crap out of them to prove a point. A good teacher can use that as a teaching moment. Look back at Rahsun scuffle with Waldo, it looked like the William Cheung fight when he got jumped by him in Boztepe all over again, wild swinging, people scrambling around on the ground. JKD people say that Waldo didn’t show any JKD but Rahsun didn’t show any Wing Chun either. He didn’t show any type of an ability to control Waldo. He just looked like an old man beating up some kid who clearly wasn’t on his level.

Now, there’s more that I want to say about the problem with challenging teachers but my other concerns are going to have to make it into another video. Look, y’all be on the lookout for the next video on my Bruce Lee series: 5 Reasons Why Bruce Lee hated Tai Chi. And be sure to check out the last video in my problems with traditional martial arts series on the problems with Aikido students. But anyway, thanks for watching. Y’all keep on breathing and I’ll see you on the next video.